Zbyszek
Sep 5 2002, 01:51 PM
I did not learn much at Polish school about this bordering region of today´s Poland. Its poverty (galicyjska bieda) used to be proverbial. A lot of poor people emigrated from there to America. Young and even middle-aged Polish people travelling there can be much surprised with the presence of many charming wooden Greek Orthodox churches. Why in predominantly catholic Poland one can find so many other churches?
I spent two weeks in August in Bieszczady, a part of Carpathian mountains in the Western Galicia. I took my history lesson before visiting there and I obtained a lot of interesting information on the site.
I came to the conclusion that the communist leaders of Poland, surely instructed by Stalin made something dangerously close to the ethnic cleansing in Bieszczady.
I would like to open the discussion on this bitter subject hoping for some optimistic conclusions.
Now, I would like to tell you a joke concerning Galicia, which I heard from an Englishmen. British politician, Lord Curzon was in charge to suggest the best location of a Polish-Russian border just after WWI (Ukraine had no real chance to be independent then). He sent some envoys to interrogate the local peasants about their impressions. They ask a poor Ukrainian farmer somewhere near Lwow(Lviv): what is your idea about your future citizenship? Would you like to be a Polish or Soviet citizen?. To the big surprise of the interrogators, he replied: I would like to be Polish. They could not believe -why? He replied with a deep conviction: If I were on the Russian side, I would surely die of the hard Russian winter.
[ Edited by Zbyszek On Date 05/09/2002 ]
short
Sep 11 2002, 02:44 AM
Yeah it was action "Vistula" in Bieszczady, It was bad but probably thanx to this Poland is not second Yugoslavia now,
about Ukraine, I heard something like this:
It was very good under Austro-Hungary
It was good under Poland
It was worse under Soviets
now we are free and its the worse
Anonymous
Oct 16 2002, 12:27 AM
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On 2002-09-11 04:44, short wrote:
Yeah it was action "Vistula" in Bieszczady, It was bad but probably thanx to this Poland is not second Yugoslavia now,
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Maybe you are are right but it is no comfort for people who lost their land forever.
I found an interesting, well designed website on Galicia:
http://www.personal.ceu.hu/students/97/Roman_Zakharii/null
Anonymous
Jan 19 2003, 10:50 AM
Citys Like Lwow had 70% poles and 20% jews 5%ukes and 5% Armenians...this is truly a polish city from where many famous poles came..the universety there was also famous..
most poles where expeled mostly to Wroclaw and western areas in poland...Poland should get this region back...also Lutsk, Rovno, Ternopol, Ivano-Frankovski, Kamienc Podolski, Dubno, Novovolinski most these citys had majorety off poles living there also jews like Pinsk which had 70% jews now Belaruss...the Ukes and belaruss lived mostly i villages while jews and poles did trade etc in citys also cause the poles ruled they where the szlachts and burgoise...
Also Vilnius had 90% Poles pre ww2 its tru..
Lithuanis had lots off poles and still has but now in example Vilnius theres only 20-30% left cause off the russia clensing...also mariampol the northern polish mazovian encalve that lithuania took was lost...
For Belaruss theres Slonim,Kobrin, Slutsk, Baranovitski, Grodno, Lida, Brest etc many old polish citys...i think theres about 1-2 milion Catholics in belaruss but proly half still speak polish...
in Ukrain i belive theres 1,5-2,5 milion poles...also Uniates which are Greek-Catholics like a mix off Orthodox that became catholics but staid with the orthodox rite or somth..
If we go back to about 1810 even then under russia there was polish gymnasiums and univ in Minsk and Kiev..
also theres some Poles left in Latvia from the pre 1795 period in Daugavpils..
I have Belaruss in my family maybe ukrainian too but i think they would have it much better under polish rule and soon EU they will poor inte Polska even more than now..
Anonymous
Jan 19 2003, 05:43 PM
when i ment most poles expeled to wroclaw i ment from Lwow to Wroclaw...also to Sczecin and all the orher western areas and mazuria..
Zbyszek
Jan 19 2003, 06:44 PM
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On 2003-01-19 11:50, Anonymous wrote:
...
most poles where expeled mostly to Wroclaw and western areas in poland...Poland should get this region back...also Lutsk, Rovno, Ternopol, Ivano-Frankovski, Kamienc
Podolski, Dubno, Novovolinski most these citys had majorety off poles living there also jews like Pinsk which had 70% jews now Belaruss...the Ukes and belaruss lived mostly i villages while jews and poles did trade etc in citys also cause the poles ruled they where the szlachts and burgoise...
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Hi Anonymous,
You are making basic historic mistakes!
1. For the most of time, Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania were a part of Rzeczpospolita, not Poland. Your ignorant statement looks like: Scotland has been a part of England.
2. Your numbers about Lwow inhabitants are meaningles, becuase you made no reference to any historic source and you did not specify the time of possible registration.
3. Would you ignore the political
status quo when shifting the borders?
4. Poland´s eastern neighbours deserve respect and not only a sympathy!
5. Please, use a nickname when responding, otherwise I will not be able to figure out whose Anonymous you are.
[ Edited by Zbyszek On Date 19/01/2003 ][ Edited by Zbyszek On Date 20/01/2003 ]
Anonymous
Jan 20 2003, 04:56 AM
its prawda
zby heres a tip Read "Gods playground" vol I-II
by norman davies u will learn much
also its tru in the citys most poles lived and jews, in this book there is maps and statistics there u will see that example
Lwow in about 1900 had im not 100% remember these figures exakt now...
17 Catholic churches
3 uniate greek catholic
2 Protestant
2 armenian churches
2 synagogs
what does this tell u?
Vilnius had 90% Poles pre ww2
today theres still many go visit ther u will hear polish in the streets..today prolly 2-30% is left..
more statistics
Lwow
55%Polish
20%Jews
20% Ukes
4% Armenian
1%Germans
not acurate on these but read the 2 volumes off the book also look up slavic history books u need to read more example amazon.com search Slav Slavic Poland etc u should do thei earlier to make ure arguments stronger if u think u know so much ure negative in all aspects to this info..
get the knowledge..
"Dawn off the slavs" etc readddd
Anonymous
Jan 20 2003, 05:06 AM
these are all pre ww2 statistics before the ethnic clensing ocured ..
and ya i know about polita but in old days a country wasnt formed like today u wanna make it like Ukes Belaruss etc had great independant regions and influence since ure almost pro uke negative pole this was an older name poland dominated greatly and rusyn or lithuanian nobles had to learn polish and become catholic to be a noble hence the many polonaized Lithuanians belaruss and ukes...u need to go too western poland and ask the older generation where they lived..
Zbyszek
Jan 20 2003, 01:32 PM
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On 2003-01-20 06:06, Anonymous wrote:
these are all pre ww2 statistics before the ethnic clensing ocured ..
and ya i know about polita but in old days a country wasnt formed like today u wanna make it like Ukes Belaruss etc had great independant regions and influence since ure almost pro uke negative pole this was an older name poland dominated greatly and rusyn or lithuanian nobles had to learn polish and become catholic to be a noble hence the many polonaized Lithuanians belaruss and ukes...u need to go too western poland and ask the older generation where they lived..
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Hi Pravda, I am glad that you joined our discussion across three intn´l forums.
I am not a professional historian but an engineer. However, I have a nice collection of history sources including Ukrainian and Russian ones. I have several Davies´s books including "Europe. A history" in two language versions: Polish and English.
Well Prawda, you look like an intelligent individual but you need to modify your tactics if want to be listened to at Ukraine.com. Your galoping at high speed
without remembering that you are a GUEST there will not be convincing. Read my dialogue with one forumer there called The_last_Word in History (Petliura & Pilsudski)
Basically, I side with you but you really simplify from time to time flooding the forumers with too much information which is too difficult to handle.
First, Rzeczpospolita should not be confused with Poland (United Kingdom was not England, read good old Norman Davies). The noble principles of this state went much beyond the purely national interest of the Poles. Secondly, your Vilnius numbers are not correct because you forgot about the Jewish community there, amounting to almost 40%. There were only a little bit more Poles there before WWII.
It is good that you are not aggressive because Russia.com is spilling with blood as a result of many hateful statements.
My advice is: concentrate on specific issues, spare the words and yours will be full success!
Wishing you the best from Warszawa
Trzymaj sie zdrowo, chlopie!
Zbyszek
(a prawda ma wiele twarzy, nawet u historykow)
My family also lived near Rowne(Ukraine) before WWII but it does not mean I want Volhynia back to Poland. Lwow was a Polish island in the Ukrainian sea and you failed to mention it. You wrote about Poles being killed en masse by Ukrainians (which was surely horrible) but you were silent about the brutal operation Vistula in the Carpathians.
Anonymous
Jan 20 2003, 07:04 PM
ya but united kingdom was england controling scotland wales? they where totaly anglofied...scotland speakes english? wales to? there only small minoretys that know their own celt language...
as for polita it Was Poland and Lihuania in a union but othat was only official...poland dominated thru all sectors, polish was the only language spoken among the nobles meetings..so for a lithuanian or ruthenian to get acepted as a noble guees what? po polsku.. and the jews in vilnius where polish speaking...if u look in "gods playground" vol.II it states that Vilnius had 90% poles thats the truth but u dont want too acept it...oficialy Lihuania was controling belaruss but there was mostly poles dominating i know many there still..about 1-2 million are catholics in belaruss and that dont include the 2 million that left too poland..Ukrain was polish from 1333 too 1795...first only galicia region but from 1400 cetury all western ukrain from dnepr...
Zbyszek
Jan 20 2003, 09:59 PM
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On 2003-01-20 20:04, Anonymous wrote:
if u look in "gods playground" vol.II it states that Vilnius had 90% poles thats the truth but u dont want too acept
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(Nie)prawda,
See Norman Davies "God´s Playground" map No 20, national distribution in Lithuania. And stop lying.
[ Edited by Zbyszek On Date 20/01/2003 ]
Anonymous
Jan 20 2003, 10:17 PM
read the text at the last pages in the book i read this book 2 weeks ago i was surprised myself..it was 90% polish speaking...ill never forget that why would i lie when i red that book i couldnt belive it myself it sounds to much but Lwow and Vilnius was the 2 most polonized regions in east lands...
Zbyszek
Jan 20 2003, 11:13 PM
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On 2003-01-20 23:17, Anonymous wrote:
read the text at the last pages in the book i read this book 2 weeks ago i was surprised myself..it was 90% polish speaking...ill never forget that why would i lie when i red that book i couldnt belive it myself it sounds to much but Lwow and Vilnius was the 2 most polonized regions in east lands...
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Now, think for a moment and read again what you posted. Now, you wrote "Polish speaking" why previously you had mentioned "Poles".
Do not you see a difference?
That is a source of your multiple inaccuracies. Many Lithuanians spoke Polish without regarding themselves Polish, plenty of Jews spoke Polish while preserving their national identity. The same with Welsh and Scots. So think twice before you post anything next time. Rzeczpospolita was a successful state of both nations and her rulers cared much about the equality when distributing the important posts and privileges between the representative of both nations. Poland was ruled by LITHUANIAN Kings! and it was very good.
Prawda, you will gradually approach the truth but first read Davies´s book again, more slowly but thoroughly. It is really well balanced account, worth studying. The spirit of this book escaped you somehow. Moreover, you can read Pawel Jasienica´s "The Commonwealth of Both Nations", a monumental essay. Jasienica is superb.
I hope you´re not angry at me. I will not post the above opinion in Ukraine.com.
[ Edited by Zbyszek On Date 21/01/2003 ]
Anonymous
Jan 20 2003, 11:39 PM
look it says 90% poles but i said 90% polish speaking cause proly Norman Davies counted all who spoke Polish..if u look at the map ethnic off poles in lithuania very acurate u will see it with pitch black representing poles in the vilnius area........many lithuanians where polonized either stopped spekin lithianian or spoke both languages some dont even know what they are poles or lihuanians...u have to admit it was poland dominating the whole scen lihuania didnt have much to say cause even lithuanaia itself was polonized thuruly...myself im fore all lithuanians ukes poles etc but poliss still where the language off the days...
1. Lokk at the map with ethnic off Lwow and Vilnius where pitch black is =75% polish majorety...the citys also has a round cake with markings the little dots is jews...the black is poles see the citys? with mostly poles and jews...
Anonymous
Apr 22 2003, 09:55 PM
In a strange twist of events, the Polish noble spoke Latin (or a poor version), whereas the Lithuanians spoke Polish. In many cases, it wasn´t that Polish was forced upon the Lithuanians, it´s just that Polish to them was a ´high language´, much like Latin was to the Poles back in those days. This is a very flattering little fact.
Very probably, a lot of people living in Galicia were not Polish at all but regarded themselves as Polish. There are documented facts that even the Jews regarded themselves as Polish when Austrians took an ethnic cencus poll during the late 19th century. The term ´Polish´ had a different meaning to it then than now. Partly because it wasn´t seen as ´nationalistic´ to regard oneself as Polish, so no sense of betrayal was felt by a Ukranian being ´Polish´ or a Lithuanian being ´Polish´.
Regards
Krzysiek
Alex
May 25 2003, 08:39 AM
Hi there! I see you´re discussing here very interesting historical issues. :-)
[ Edited by Alex On Date 25/05/2003 ]
Alex
May 26 2003, 06:01 AM
Reading your posts guys, it may to think that half of Ukraine´s territory is ethnical Polish land, right? Correct me, if I´m wrong. The Russians strongly reckon that ALL Ukraine should belong to Russia. Weird situation. :roll:
Zbyszek
Jun 12 2003, 11:10 PM
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On 2003-05-26 08:01, Alex wrote:
Reading your posts guys, it may to think that half of Ukraine´s territory is ethnical Polish land, right? Correct me, if I´m wrong. The Russians strongly reckon that ALL Ukraine should belong to Russia. Weird situation. :roll:
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In no way Alex, I think most of us Poles respect Ukrainian rights to their lands. I only would be very cautious in applying the pure ethnical criterion because the most us are of mixed Slavic or other background.
Krzysiek said something quite valuable. The noun POLSKA and the adjective Polski had different meaning than they have now. There was no shame for a XVIth century Lithuanian to say: I am Polish born in Lithuania because it only had no negative connotation.
Citizens who claimed "Gente Rutenia, natio Poloniae" were quite numerous at that time.
Those times knew no such a crazy national prejudice which is present nowadays.
Alex, hello to Ukraine, a promised and a cursed Slavic land.
You have a fabulous land, protect it and thank God for it.
And do not forget that Ivan Franko wrote 5000 items in his life, including 1000 in POLISH. I know some Ukrainians would like to forget it but at Franko´s time writing excellent Polish was a matter of pride.
[ Edited by Zbyszek On Date 13/06/2003 ]
Domingo
Nov 6 2003, 01:06 AM
Hello,
The word Galicja is so filled with emotions also for one more reason, not very often mentioned here or in the literature:
This province, created by Austrians, and named after the medieval dukedom of Halicz, was PURPOSELY MADE A CONFLICT AREA BY THE OCCUPANTS who ruled according to the old Roman rule "divide et impera". Austrians, Germans, Soviets have a great "contribution" to the mutual hatred that the Poles and the Ukrainians had for each other (and I hope that we left this long behind). It consisted of Ruthenian (and later Ukrainian) lands of "Halychyna", and part of Little (or Lesser, as some prefer) Poland. This was largely artificial. The policy of Austrian government was to stir up emotions between both nations, promising both nations contradictory things, favouring one against the other. The same was done by the Russians (although the Austrians favoured more the Poles, the Russians did the Ukrainians), and then during WWI. Afterwards, it was quite natural that the stronger of the nations would start to oppress the weaker one. Because Poles were luckier and for the period between both wars dominated, they managed to dominate part of the Ukraine (still, please remember that in the Soviet Ukraine people were suffering much more). Then it rapidly changed during World War II (OUN/UPA - let´s face it - extermination of the Polish minority). Later Poles "paid off" with ethnic cleasning (operation "Wisla"). What I want to say to you, compatriots-Poles and brothers-Ukrainians, is that we should once and for all stop fighting each other and try to think how close in fact our nations are and do not let us manipulate again.
Rcoty
Nov 10 2003, 06:49 PM
I hope you don´t think I am a total idiot but I know almost nothing about European History. I came across your posting and it pertains to some information I was looking for. Here goes: My grandparents came to NYC separately in the early 1900´s. We were told they were from different places in Poland. I have found them in the 1920 and 1930 census and it shows they were from Galicia/Halychyna, Austria-Poland. After reading your posting, Am I correct to assume that it was a large region, not a town/Village? If so, where was this region located. (What country is it now?) Please help me sort this out
short
Nov 12 2003, 11:29 AM
long long time ago Galicja was polish territory, nowadays it is divided between Poland (West Galicia) and Ukraine (East Galicia)
Cheesybutt
Dec 25 2003, 06:27 AM
Historically speaking Poland ended at the Bug river. Poland colonized much of the western part of the Ukraine. Very similar to what the Germans did in Western Poland and what the Americans did to the Indians. :roll:
sassynsweet
Dec 25 2003, 09:29 AM
Nice nickname cheesybutt! hehehe..merry xmas to you.
Zbyszek
Jan 18 2004, 01:13 AM
Indian example does not fit here!
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On 2003-12-25 07:27, Cheesybutt wrote:
Historically speaking Poland ended at the Bug river. Poland colonized much of the western part of the Ukraine. Very similar to what the Germans did in Western Poland and what the Americans did to the Indians. :roll:
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I find this analogy absolutely unfounded. Polish and Ruthenian cultures have always been close and there was never any policy of exterminating Ruthenians/Ukrainians by the Poles. There was a tough competition at times but thank God Western Ukrainians are more Ukrainian than their Eastern brothers. Why? Because Poland was not bent on stealing their souls.
Your words are insulting and far from the truth. The truth was that Ruthenians turned out to be a weaker partner after the Mongol invasions and Poles did not overlook it.
Colonisation? Maybe in the economic sense but never in a cultural meaning.
Ezekiel56
Apr 2 2004, 11:41 PM
"Rutheian and Polish culture have always been close"
This is true but this is not the case for Ukrainian and Belarussian culture. The term Ukrainian is a historically very recent term all Ukrainians can trace their culure back to Rus culture. Western Ukrainian identity is nothing more then the result of Polonization. Many Ukrainian Orhtodox were fored to accept the legitimacy of the Pope. Cheesyutt is correct, Poland has no claim to those territories. Lets not forget the Ruhtians are primarily located around the Carpathian mountains. Poland extended its tenticles much further then that. Oh, and one more thing it was never American policy to exterinate the Indians either, but it happened de facto. Poles forced Ukanians to be peasants while Poles owned all of the land. Why do you think the cossacks revolted? Because they loved to live under polish oppression?
Anonymous
Apr 6 2004, 09:00 PM
Ezekiel are yu Ukrainian? I´m sure you come from the east of Poland, am I right? But you are right saying that. I think history will change in 20 years and that would not have any importance because there will be no borders. As for Felix Dzie... he was murdering for Lenin and Rsians were not murdering for Poles. I don´t have anything to Germans or Rusians or Ukrainians it is a history and nobody´s perfect. :roll:
Zbyszek
May 11 2004, 03:32 PM
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On 2004-04-03 01:41, Ezekiel56 wrote:
... The term Ukrainian is a historically very recent term all Ukrainians can trace their culure back to Rus culture. Western Ukrainian identity is nothing more then the result of Polonization. Many Ukrainian Orhtodox were fored to accept the legitimacy of the Pope. Cheesyutt is correct, Poland has no claim to those territories. Lets not forget the Ruhtians are primarily located around the Carpathian mountains. Poland extended its tenticles much further then that. Oh, and one more thing it was never American policy to exterinate the Indians either, but it happened de facto. Poles forced Ukanians to be peasants while Poles owned all of the land. Why do you think the cossacks revolted? Because they loved to live under polish oppression?
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You say that Poles forced Ukrainians to be peasants. Well, ca. 90 % of Ukraine´s population used to be peasants, and many of them were Ruthenized Polish peasants migrating from Vistula valley. Both Polish and Ruthenian landlords did not care too much about the educational level of the rural population. Ukrainian historians are often silent about the passive role of Ruthenian lords in the process. Please recall the names of Ostrogski, Wisniowiecki and many other Ruthenian noble names who were supposed to be guardians of their culture. Cossacks? They were all but innocent. Do not forget that Dikye Polya were a shelter for all kind of bandits, people who escaped justice and restive peasants. Cossack leaders lacked deeper political thought which was necessary for building a firm state. Hence, the results were often against declared noble ideas (Khmyelnitski, Zalizniak and others).
It is sad to say but Ruthenian/Ukrainian leaders were often the weakest part of Ukrainian nation. Their impatience and short-sightedness was one of the reasons for the Kievan Rus disintegration in the XIIIth century. Again, Bandera´s blind nationalism in the XXth century led to impairment of the Ukrainian image among its Polish and Russian neighbours.
I absolutely do not agree that "Western Ukrainian identity is nothing more then the result of Polonization". In fact, there would be no chance for the modern independent Ukraine without its western part.
[ Edited by Zbyszek On Date 11/05/2004 ]
Kimberly
May 27 2004, 08:35 PM
A quick comment regarding a previous reply that I noticed concerning American history: The American Government (mostly through President Andrew Jackson) most certainly did intend on exterminating Native Americans. I have the unique position of being of a mostly Polish, and also Cherokee, descent. Will Nations quit trying to kill us off please?
[ Edited by Kimberly On Date 27/05/2004 ]
Zbyszek
May 28 2004, 12:18 AM
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On 2004-05-27 22:35, Kimberly wrote:
A quick comment regarding a previous reply that I noticed concerning American history: The American Government (mostly through President Andrew Jackson) most certainly did intend on exterminating Native Americans. I have the unique position of being of a mostly Polish, and also Cherokee, descent. Will Nations quit trying to kill us off please?
[ Edited by Kimberly On Date 27/05/2004 ]
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Hi Kimberly, you just confirmed my knowledge on the matter. Polish lords oppressed Ukrainian population but it has NEVER been meant as a national extermination. All these deeds, altough ugly, seem to be innocent plays when compared with what happened to the American Indians.
Presently, huge majority of Polish people support Ukrainian independence.
Kimberly, you should know that Ukraine would not last five minutes as an independent country without its western part. There was some chance for Ukrainians to regain independence from the Soviets in 1918 but when Petlura and Pilsudski took over Kyiv (Kiev) together they encountered passivity and lack of determination so they had to give up.
It is not enough to cry: I would like to be independent. Regaining independence requires much determined nation + smart leadership + plenty of historic luck.
America showed all these qualities in the end of XVIIIth century, George Washington was proper leader and Poles took their share as well (Kosciuszko + Pulaski).
Paul
Jul 12 2007, 12:03 PM
You might as well keep the borders. No sence stirring up the Orthodoxies. Poland always had a habit of wanting to spread east and not west. First Polonize Poland, then expand. Is Catholicism and Orthodoxy the only different between east and west?
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